Borland marketing is killing our Delphi projects ... hope it's not too late

[Günther Schoch]

Hello to all

I think it makes sense to explain here a "real world marketing case" in
order to discuss perhaps a better approach that could be made by the
borland marketing

facts:

We deliver since Delphi 1 real large software product to the army. For a
long time we were far ahead of any other product combination (e.g. C++
or VB ...).

Since about 2 years our opponents try to define Delphi as a "risky
platform".

We continued to developed Win32 Delphi code an are still a lot
cheaper/faster/stable as our oppoents. Now they do is to try to "put
Delphi on the black list = not allowed for new projects".

In the meantime we migrated some 100'000 lines and a bigger trial
project to D2005.NET. And D2005.NET is since SP4(unoffical <g>) a real
great platform!

What a great message to the customer (we would expect). They have not to
rewrite projects (Total Sum >> 10 Mio$) but can migrate with just about
10% of the initial costs to .NET (if they believe it's time to shift).

We do run Win32/.NET parallel. WHERE IS THE PROBLEM?

And there is still a problem. They do not trust Delphi's future. Purely
emotional! Microsofts marketing machine against what = the borland vacuum?

Please do not start to discuss technical. We are talking about marketing
=emotions.

Example: To show during a meeting the new book "Delphi 2005 of Marco
Cantu" was better than all the Borland marketing support for Delphi
during the last 2 years.

Borland does offer some technical sales persons for such meetings ...
forget it. Most of us in this forum do know more about Delphi and are
better used to sell projects. Ok e.g. John Kuster would be a great show
but he cannot to the whole worldwide presentation and talks by his own.

What I do need is a clear strategy.

I cannot convince my customers by "ALM" and "JAVA..Eclypse..do not know
what" ideas.

It does to not help to inform my customer that "Delphi is a nice little
cash cow" (or that "Dexter the bull" will solve all his problems).

it's up to Borland to provide a clear strategy that can be explained in
easy words to a strategic customer!

regards

Günther

[Tim Jarvis [Borland - Services]]

Hi Gunther,

Where are you located ? What can we do to help you ?

Cheers Tim.

Post by Günther Schoch
Hello to all
I think it makes sense to explain here a "real world marketing case"
in order to discuss perhaps a better approach that could be made by
the borland marketing
We deliver since Delphi 1 real large software product to the army.
For a long time we were far ahead of any other product combination
(e.g. C++ or VB ...).
Since about 2 years our opponents try to define Delphi as a "risky
platform".
We continued to developed Win32 Delphi code an are still a lot
cheaper/faster/stable as our oppoents. Now they do is to try to "put
Delphi on the black list = not allowed for new projects".
In the meantime we migrated some 100'000 lines and a bigger trial
project to D2005.NET. And D2005.NET is since SP4(unoffical <g>) a
real great platform!
What a great message to the customer (we would expect). They have not
to rewrite projects (Total Sum >> 10 Mio$) but can migrate with just
about 10% of the initial costs to .NET (if they believe it's time to
shift).
We do run Win32/.NET parallel. WHERE IS THE PROBLEM?
And there is still a problem. They do not trust Delphi's future.
Purely emotional! Microsofts marketing machine against what = the
borland vacuum?
Please do not start to discuss technical. We are talking about
marketing =emotions.
Example: To show during a meeting the new book "Delphi 2005 of Marco
Cantu" was better than all the Borland marketing support for Delphi
during the last 2 years.
Borland does offer some technical sales persons for such meetings ...
forget it. Most of us in this forum do know more about Delphi and are
better used to sell projects. Ok e.g. John Kuster would be a great
show but he cannot to the whole worldwide presentation and talks by
his own.
What I do need is a clear strategy.
I cannot convince my customers by "ALM" and "JAVA..Eclypse..do not
know what" ideas.
It does to not help to inform my customer that "Delphi is a nice
little cash cow" (or that "Dexter the bull" will solve all his
problems).
it's up to Borland to provide a clear strategy that can be explained
in easy words to a strategic customer!
regards
Günther

[Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]]

Post by Tim Jarvis [Borland - Services]
Hi Gunther,
Where are you located ?

Switzerland, I'd guess: http://www.gs-soft.com/aboutus.html

[Günther Schoch]

Hello Tom

thank you for your fast answer

where

in switzerland

help

with a clear strategy that is
- easy to understand
- not only words but facts
- a CEO knowing that Delphi is not a cow

no serious. Not easy to turn such disasters as the "nice little cash
cow" again into success.

I think for shortterm

That one of your "top shot" would be willing to contact the swiss army
and offer a "Borland strategy session" (could be via Video Conference).

Until this session takes place you should have a strategy that can
convince a large organisation.

regards

Günther

[Lauchlan M]

Post by Günther Schoch
Until this session takes place you should have a strategy that can
convince a large organisation.

They should argue the ALM line.

But I can't see Borland marketing doing much to pitch/support Delphi. The
ALM works with MS, Borland and other IDEs, and they push their ALM for Java
mainly. They'll probably come in with a plug that Delphi is good for legacy
reasons and with Delphi you can port it all to .net (and then it doesn't
matter if you use Borland or MS IDEs).

So I guess you're on your own for marketing Delphi to your organisation on
your own behalf. Or learning VS.NET, C# and the .NET framework. Whichever is
easier.

Lauchlan M

[Peter Morris [Droopy eyes software]]

That one of your "top shot" would be willing to contact the swiss army and
offer a "Borland strategy session" (could be via Video Conference).

I don't think it would be too difficult to convince the swiss army, they'll
buy any old rubbish. Just take a look at those swiss army knives for
example, who they gonna kill with one of those then eh? :-)

[Günther Schoch]

Hello Peter

Post by Peter Morris [Droopy eyes software]
buy any old rubbish. Just take a look at those swiss army knives for
example, who they gonna kill with one of those then eh? :-)

you are right. We bought about 35 FA18 from the states. Real old
overpriced rubbish. But perhaps you have some useful remark for this thread?

regards

Günther

[Tim Jarvis [Borland - Services]]

Post by Günther Schoch
Hello Tom
thank you for your fast answer

where

in switzerland

help

with a clear strategy that is
- easy to understand
- not only words but facts
- a CEO knowing that Delphi is not a cow
no serious. Not easy to turn such disasters as the "nice little cash
cow" again into success.
I think for shortterm
That one of your "top shot" would be willing to contact the swiss
army and offer a "Borland strategy session" (could be via Video
Conference).
Until this session takes place you should have a strategy that can
convince a large organisation.
regards
Günther

Hi Günther,

Our messaging recently has been unfortunate and we have no excuse for
that really, that will change real soon now. But contrary to whats been
said, Delphi's future is not in doubt, we have not published our Delphi
roadmap yet, I don't know the specifics of why, but I can tell you that
the plans for Delphi are exciting and reach a long way into the future.

Now this piece of news whilst good, does not address your specific
problem with your client. Its important for us at Borland for you to
succeed with our products, and we have people in the organisation who
are there to assist you with this. In your area (Switzerland) your
local product line sales manager (PLSM) is Jason Vokes, I urge you to
email him (normal email format applies) and ask for some assistance, I
know Jason well, and I know that he will do whatever he can (within
reason) to help you with your customer.

Best Regards Tim Jarvis
Consulting Services (APAC)

[Bruce McGee]

Post by Tim Jarvis [Borland - Services]
Hi Gunther,
Where are you located ? What can we do to help you ?
Cheers Tim.

Hi Tim,

I'm happy to see some enthusiasm from Borland on this kind of thing.

If you're interested, talk to Michael Swindell about the rant I sent
him before the last Borcon. It's too late to do anything about that
situation, but it might serve as a cautionary tale.

It boils down to the idea that Borland's marketing message (not the
department) is inadequate and in some cases counterproductive. Fixing
this will make it a lot easier for me to sell people on the idea of
Delphi (and all of the other tools necessary for real development) as a
going concern instead of a tool whose time has come and gone.

[Tim Jarvis [Borland - Services]]

Post by Bruce McGee

Post by Tim Jarvis [Borland - Services]
Hi Gunther,
Where are you located ? What can we do to help you ?
Cheers Tim.

Hi Tim,
I'm happy to see some enthusiasm from Borland on this kind of thing.
If you're interested, talk to Michael Swindell about the rant I sent
him before the last Borcon. It's too late to do anything about that
situation, but it might serve as a cautionary tale.
It boils down to the idea that Borland's marketing message (not the
department) is inadequate and in some cases counterproductive. Fixing
this will make it a lot easier for me to sell people on the idea of
Delphi (and all of the other tools necessary for real development) as
a going concern instead of a tool whose time has come and gone.

Hi Bruce,

Actually you are not alone in this, we have been hearing it a lot and
you (collectively) are being heard. Internally, myself and others have
also been complaining about how we have been representing ourselves and
Delphi lately, fortunately the message is sinking in, and hopefully you
will see the changes come through real soon.

Cheers Tim.

[Dave Nottage [TeamB]]

..fortunately the message is sinking in, and hopefully you
will see the changes come through real soon.

Good to hear. Thanks for that message, Tim.

[John Kaster (Borland)]

Post by Tim Jarvis [Borland - Services]
Where are you located ? What can we do to help you ?

Thanks Tim ... you beat me to the punch ;)

[Günther Schoch]

Hello John

and what's next?

regards

Günther

my personal email ***@.. company above

[Tim Jarvis [Borland - Services]]

Post by John Kaster (Borland)

Post by Tim Jarvis [Borland - Services]
Where are you located ? What can we do to help you ?

Thanks Tim ... you beat me to the punch ;)

Haha, Helps that I'm on the other side of the world, I guess I can be
the night shift :-)

[Bob Swart]

Hi Günther,

Post by Günther Schoch
I think it makes sense to explain here a "real world marketing case" in
order to discuss perhaps a better approach that could be made by the
borland marketing

As far as I know, Borland still has a Delphi marketing manager, Michael
Slinn, so perhaps you should try to contact him?

Post by Günther Schoch
Günther

Groetjes,
Bob Swart (aka Dr.Bob - www.DrBob42.com)

[IanH]

Post by Bob Swart
As far as I know, Borland still has a Delphi marketing manager,
Michael Slinn, so perhaps you should try to contact him?

You mean the guy that started blogging + posting here, until the black
helicopters landed and he went very quiet <g>

[Eric Grange]

Post by IanH
You mean the guy that started blogging + posting here, until the black
helicopters landed and he went very quiet <g>

Black helicopters? What black helicopters? I'm sure you won't be able
to find any witness mentionning black helicopters... anymore. ;)

Eric

[IanH]

Post by Eric Grange

Post by IanH
You mean the guy that started blogging + posting here, until the
black helicopters landed and he went very quiet <g>

Black helicopters? What black helicopters? I'm sure you won't be able
to find any witness mentionning black helicopters... anymore. ;)
Eric

<vbg>

[Tim Jarvis [Borland - Services]]

Post by IanH
You mean the guy that started blogging + posting here, until the black
helicopters landed and he went very quiet <g>

"Never ascribe to Malice, that which also can be explained by ....."

Nobody ever asked Michael to stop blogging and nobody ever asked him to
remove his blogs, he did that himself, for reasons that are only known
to himself.

[Günther Schoch]

Hello Bob

thank you for the feedback ... I expect that Tim Jarvis will answer on
my suggestions (see above)

will see you in frankfurt

Günther

[Bob Swart]

Hi Günther,

Post by Günther Schoch
will see you in frankfurt

Looking forward to it!

Post by Günther Schoch
Günther

Groetjes,
Bob Swart (aka Dr.Bob - www.DrBob42.com)

[John Kaster (Borland)]

Post by Bob Swart
As far as I know, Borland still has a Delphi marketing manager,
Michael Slinn, so perhaps you should try to contact him?

I'm sure this is going to start a flame fest, but Michael Slinn is no
longer with Borland. I cannot provide any reasons why he is gone,
because that would be illegal and unethical. It's not for any of the
reasons people here will jump to, but unfortunately I doubt that will
stop them from flaming. I will not confirm or deny guesses as to why he
is gone. Any inflammatory posts or personal attacks that derive from
this topic will be cancelled without explanation.

In the meantime, Michael Swindell, Jason Vokes, Malcolm Groves, Rob
Cheng (his former boss) and myself are taking over his duties. Rob
Cheng is the closest you have to an official "Delphi Marketing Manager"
for right now. Right now, we're busy enough just getting done what
needs to be done before the product launch to try and find a
replacement and get him/her up to speed.

Thank you in advance for your understanding.

[Scott Roberts]

Post by John Kaster (Borland)

Post by Bob Swart
As far as I know, Borland still has a Delphi marketing manager,
Michael Slinn, so perhaps you should try to contact him?

I'm sure this is going to start a flame fest, but Michael Slinn is no
longer with Borland. I cannot provide any reasons why he is gone,
because that would be illegal and unethical.

Fair enough. Perhaps you can tell us whether Borland is actively searching
for a replacement?

[Lord Crc]

On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:53:22 -0500, "Scott Roberts"

Post by Scott Roberts
Fair enough. Perhaps you can tell us whether Borland is actively searching
for a replacement?

I think he stated that already? "Right now, we're busy enough just
getting done what needs to be done before the product launch to try
and find a replacement and get him/her up to speed."

Ie, no?

- Asbjørn

[Scott Roberts]

Post by Lord Crc
On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:53:22 -0500, "Scott Roberts"

Post by Scott Roberts
Fair enough. Perhaps you can tell us whether Borland is actively searching
for a replacement?

I think he stated that already? "Right now, we're busy enough just
getting done what needs to be done before the product launch to try
and find a replacement and get him/her up to speed."

In fact he did. Thanks.

[John Kaster (Borland)]

They need a miracle.

Miracles take a bit longer. The improbable can happen sooner.

[Alvaro GP]

Post by Scott Roberts
In fact he did. Thanks.

They don't need a new Delphi Marketing Manager. They need a miracle.

[John Kaster (Borland)]

Post by Scott Roberts
Perhaps you can tell us whether Borland is actively searching
for a replacement?

Just spoke to Rob Cheng about this, and he said "Absolutely! Have
anyone interested go ahead and email me!"

His email is the simple pattern <first name>.<last name>@borland.com

[Atmapuri]

Hi!

Post by Günther Schoch
Please do not start to discuss technical. We are talking about marketing
=emotions.

Here is one short survay for your customer <g>:
1.) How much money are you willing to spend on a would be, maybe?
2.) Are you customers aware of how fast you can move to any language?
There are automatic tools that can regenerate source code to any
.NET language from your Delphi.NET assemblies.
3.) Delphi may be on "a less known tool", but if you want to
save money, are you after witchcraft or current state of reality?
4.) MS asked me, why dont we move to pure VS.NET.
The answer is simple: We cant afford it. We can still cover
market segments that would cost us multiple times more
if they were to be done with VS.NET.
5.) Can you give me a programming tool example that allows
you to do in W32, what Delphi 2005 can do today? .NET
level of IDE and C# productivity, but pure W32 code with 5x less
memory, 5x more speed than .NET?
6.) Nothing is safe or certain when you are in the cutting edge,
but only the bold can go where no man has gone before.

Your competition is just using the marketing as a tool. Well,
you too can do the same. But marketing that is most effective
long term is such which expresses your own strong points, and does not
put down or criticise your competition.

This has nothing to do with Borland Marketing. That is your
own marketing.<g>

Best Regards!
Atmapuri

Post by Günther Schoch
Example: To show during a meeting the new book "Delphi 2005 of Marco
Cantu" was better than all the Borland marketing support for Delphi during
the last 2 years.
Borland does offer some technical sales persons for such meetings ...
forget it. Most of us in this forum do know more about Delphi and are
better used to sell projects. Ok e.g. John Kuster would be a great show
but he cannot to the whole worldwide presentation and talks by his own.
What I do need is a clear strategy.
I cannot convince my customers by "ALM" and "JAVA..Eclypse..do not know
what" ideas.
It does to not help to inform my customer that "Delphi is a nice little
cash cow" (or that "Dexter the bull" will solve all his problems).
it's up to Borland to provide a clear strategy that can be explained in
easy words to a strategic customer!
regards
Günther

[Günther Schoch]

Hello Atmapuri

thank you as well for your feedback.

Post by Atmapuri
This has nothing to do with Borland Marketing. That is your
own marketing.<g>

I do not fully agree on that.

I still think that the product D2005.NET and Win32 is a lot lot better
than the marketing. It's a unique way of keeping your investments in
software.

But specially for big customers a CEO talking about a "nice little cash
cow" is a disaster. And if he really thinks that, than it is a disaster.

regards

Günther

[Oliver Townshend]

Post by Günther Schoch
But specially for big customers a CEO talking about a "nice little cash
cow" is a disaster. And if he really thinks that, than it is a disaster.

That sort of product actually has a long life, because its profitable. It's
actually a good sign.

Oliver Townshend

[Eric Grange]

Post by Oliver Townshend
That sort of product actually has a long life, because its profitable. It's
actually a good sign.

Cash Cows in the IT world are old systems that bring maintainance
money without requiring much enhancement or development work, in other
words, Cash Cows are systems COBOL developpers work on, Cash Cows
are the great systems of old that still work, but for which you pray
hardware won't fail because spare parts are impossible to find
and/or super expensive.

Not a good image to be associated with if you're trying to sell
something new.

Eric

[Henrick Hellström [StreamSec]]

Post by Eric Grange
Not a good image to be associated with if you're trying to sell
something new.

OTOH a defence contractor shouldn't sell something new, but something
built on a tried, trusted and proven design.

I don't think missile guidance systems are programmed in C# or VB.NET. <eg>

[Eric Grange]

Post by Henrick Hellström [StreamSec]
OTOH a defence contractor shouldn't sell something new, but something
built on a tried, trusted and proven design.

Defense contractors often look to something that will last decades too,
so there is a balance to strike.

Post by Henrick Hellström [StreamSec]
I don't think missile guidance systems are programmed in C# or VB.NET. <eg>

But I don't think they're programmed in ASM anymore either ;)
Is even ADA still being used for new projects? (haven't touched
military software for almost a decade)

Eric

[Oliver Townshend]

Post by Eric Grange
Cash Cows in the IT world are old systems that bring maintainance
money without requiring much enhancement or development work, in other
words, Cash Cows are systems COBOL developpers work on, Cash Cows
are the great systems of old that still work, but for which you pray
hardware won't fail because spare parts are impossible to find
and/or super expensive.

How does this hardware system you describe resemble a cash cow? If the
parts are impossible to find, then noone is selling them. The Macintosh is
a cash cow.

Oliver Townshend

[Sarah]

Post by Atmapuri
This has nothing to do with Borland Marketing. That is your
own marketing.<g>

You must be kidding!
If he was doing poor marketing, he wouldn't have supplied to defense in the first place.

[Atmapuri]

Hi!

Post by Sarah

Post by Atmapuri
This has nothing to do with Borland Marketing. That is your
own marketing.<g>

You must be kidding!
If he was doing poor marketing, he wouldn't have supplied to defense in the first place.

Think about it. How many car buyers ask, who is car makers steal supplier?
And make a decision upon that? Of course, its not the same with software,
but this is getting completely silly. Why on earth would the customer need
an insight in your entire toolchain, in order to be able to make a purchase
decision? Reminds me on the slogans like: Dont buy Japanese TV, be an
American etc..
Your tools are your own cost.... Who cares who made the wrench I use to
tighten up the screws...

On one side everybody is saying, how language does not matter, that under
.NET
all is the same and that Delphi can compile almost the same source for both
platforms. That there are automatic dissambly tools that can dissaassemble
to any
language....

And once you actually do use something else except C#: "Oh man, its
unholy...
<g>

So instead of waiting for Borland do its own mirracle, heck you can think,
you dont need somebody to hold your hand. You can do your part of
washing away the nonsense yourself... :)

Best Regards!
Atmapuri

[Günther Schoch]

Hello Atmapuri

I don't think that we are working in the same market or quality
assurance system. Your customer does want the QA certificates of the
steal used for his tanks.

regards and enjoy your market

Günther

[Uffe Kousgaard]

Post by Günther Schoch
And there is still a problem. They do not trust Delphi's future.

I understand you very well. In the old days I would proudly have mentioned,
that a certain product was created with Delphi. These days the customers
will have to read it between the lines - I wouldn't want to scare anyone
off, if they see the word Delphi.

Borland should make a clear statement like this: "Yes, Delphi is going very
well, it is our main source of income and nobody in their right mind would
kill such a product. Borland shall keep extending Delphi, so our customers
can be sure it will also be a competitive platform in 10 years from now."

Regards
Uffe

(been using Borland products since TP3)

[David Wilcockson]

Post by Uffe Kousgaard
Borland should make a clear statement like this: "Yes, Delphi is going
very well, it is our main source of income and nobody in their right mind
would kill such a product. Borland shall keep extending Delphi, so our
customers can be sure it will also be a competitive platform in 10 years
from now."

Absolutely - it would make a great deal of difference.

David

[Lauchlan M]

Post by Uffe Kousgaard
Borland should make a clear statement like this: "Yes, Delphi is going very
well, it is our main source of income and nobody in their right mind would
kill such a product. Borland shall keep extending Delphi, so our customers
can be sure it will also be a competitive platform in 10 years from now."

I think John Kaster was committed to try to get management to say this over
a week ago.

It seems to be a big deal for management to utter these words.

Lauchlan M

[Brian Moelk]

Post by Lauchlan M
I think John Kaster was committed to try to get management to say this over
a week ago.

Much longer than a week ago: August 18th 2005.
http://tinyurl.com/b7hj4

Post by Lauchlan M
It seems to be a big deal for management to utter these words.

Sure is. Of course they have to get it passed all their stages: legal, etc.
If they only had PRDO (Public Relations Delivery Optimization)...

--
Brian Moelk
***@NObrainendeavorSPAM.FORcomME
http://www.brainendeavor.com

[Uffe Kousgaard]

Post by Brian Moelk
If they only had PRDO (Public Relations Delivery Optimization)...

LOL !

[Ingvar Nilsen]

Post by Brian Moelk
Sure is. Of course they have to get it passed all their stages: legal, etc.
If they only had PRDO (Public Relations Delivery Optimization)...

He he, chuckle ;-))

[Craig Stuntz [TeamB]]

Post by Brian Moelk
If they only had PRDO (Public Relations Delivery Optimization)...

You could sell a lot of this if you could produce it.

[Lauchlan M]

Post by Brian Moelk
Sure is. Of course they have to get it passed all their stages: legal, etc.
If they only had PRDO (Public Relations Delivery Optimization)...

Good golly gosh. If they started taking steps in this direction, they would
face the danger of undertaking marketing of the Delphi product.

Can't have that . . .

Lauchlan M

[Joe Hendricks]

Post by Brian Moelk
If they only had PRDO (Public Relations Delivery Optimization)...

ROTFL !

[Scott Roberts]

Post by Brian Moelk

Post by Lauchlan M
I think John Kaster was committed to try to get management to say this

over

Post by Lauchlan M
a week ago.

Much longer than a week ago: August 18th 2005.
http://tinyurl.com/b7hj4

Post by Lauchlan M
It seems to be a big deal for management to utter these words.

Sure is.

Speaks volumes, doesn't it?

[John Kaster (Borland)]

Post by Scott Roberts
Speaks volumes, doesn't it?

What would you rather see: another confusing or incomplete answer, or a
firm and clear answer on Borland's commitment to Delphi?

It takes a while for the latter, and to get legal and PR to agree to
the public commitment. It has been in process since before I posted the
email here. I prefer to get something as important as this as right as
it can be the first time because IMO there won't be any more second
chances on this subject.

So, you're just going to have to wait until the people managing Delphi
are happy with the message that will be put out. Sorry.

[Abdullah Kauchali]

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
So, you're just going to have to wait until the people managing Delphi
are happy with the message that will be put out. Sorry.

When, John?

(And no, I'm not expecting a Gandalf type of answer: "look to the East
on the fifth day" ... just that a probable date would be great. <g>)

[Rick Carter]

Post by Abdullah Kauchali

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
So, you're just going to have to wait until the people managing Delphi
are happy with the message that will be put out. Sorry.

When, John?
(And no, I'm not expecting a Gandalf type of answer: "look to the East
on the fifth day" ... just that a probable date would be great. <g>)

All together now: "When it's ready. <tm>"

John has said he's working on getting top managment and legal people to
agree to make a public statement. How can you expect John to promise a
date for the response at this time?

For me, the statement will be a formality. I'm sure that if John Kaster,
Michael Swindell, and Danny Thorpe were convinced that Delphi's future is
bleak, we would somehow know about it by now.

Rick Carter
***@despammed.com
Chair, Delphi/Paradox SIG, Cincinnati PC Users Group

--- posted by geoForum on http://delphi.newswhat.com

[Abdullah Kauchali]

Post by Rick Carter
All together now: "When it's ready. <tm>"
John has said he's working on getting top managment and legal people to
agree to make a public statement. How can you expect John to promise a
date for the response at this time?
For me, the statement will be a formality. I'm sure that if John Kaster,
Michael Swindell, and Danny Thorpe were convinced that Delphi's future is
bleak, we would somehow know about it by now.

Sit down before you hurt yourself. When did I say I wanted a confirmed
date?

What I'd like to know is: is it going to take:

- days
- weeks
- months, or
- years to get that promised official word?

That's all. Do you think that's too much to ask?

[Abdullah Kauchali]

Yes.

You gotta be joking.

[Dan Miser]

Post by Abdullah Kauchali

Yes.

You gotta be joking.

No, not at all. You want John to give you some kind of timeframe on this,
when it has been made abundantly clear that he isn't the one who controls
when it will be done. How on earth is he supposed to commit a timeframe to
something where he has no control? More importantly, *why* do that? It is a
complete lose-lose situation. If he gives you a timeframe, then a certain
group within this newsgroup will do their best to throw that in his face if
the time lapses with no visible progress to the outside world. If it does
happen to work out that he guesses right, then that same group will feel
empowered by thinking that they actually contributed to the solution instead
of the problem.
--
Dan Miser
http://www.distribucon.com

[Abdullah Kauchali]

Post by Dan Miser
No, not at all. You want John to give you some kind of timeframe on this,
when it has been made abundantly clear that he isn't the one who controls
when it will be done. How on earth is he supposed to commit a timeframe to
something where he has no control? More importantly, *why* do that? It is a
complete lose-lose situation. If he gives you a timeframe, then a certain
group within this newsgroup will do their best to throw that in his face if
the time lapses with no visible progress to the outside world. If it does
happen to work out that he guesses right, then that same group will feel
empowered by thinking that they actually contributed to the solution instead
of the problem.

Ok.

[Dan Miser]

<snip>
That's all. Do you think that's too much to ask?

Yes.
--
Dan Miser
http://www.distribucon.com

[Angra Mainyu]

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
So, you're just going to have to wait until the people managing Delphi
are happy with the message that will be put out. Sorry.

Sounds a bit like herding cats. ;-)

Do you remember when you could look the entirety of your company in the eye as
you shaved in the morning and unanimous decisions meant talking to yourself?

[John Kaster (Borland)]

Post by Angra Mainyu
Sounds a bit like herding cats. ;-)

Having four cats myself, I can tell you that herding cats is much
easier.

Post by Angra Mainyu
Do you remember when you could look the entirety of your company in
the eye as you shaved in the morning and unanimous decisions meant
talking to yourself?

yes, quite well sometimes. Except for the shaving part. Don't do that
every day ;)

[Ed Dressel]

Post by John Kaster (Borland)

Post by Angra Mainyu
Sounds a bit like herding cats. ;-)

Having four cats myself, I can tell you that herding cats is much
easier.

can we have a video :-)

[Ingvar Nilsen]

Post by Ed Dressel

Post by John Kaster (Borland)

Post by Angra Mainyu
Sounds a bit like herding cats. ;-)

Having four cats myself, I can tell you that herding cats is much
easier.

can we have a video :-)

John has to be a good guy, I tend to like people who have cats, I love
cats myself :-)

[Dave Nottage [TeamB]]

Post by Ingvar Nilsen
John has to be a good guy, I tend to like people who have cats, I love
cats myself :-)

I have 2 cats <g>

[Bob Dawson]

Post by Ingvar Nilsen
John has to be a good guy, I tend to like people who have cats, I love
cats myself :-)

"I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as
equals."
--Winston Churchill

[John Kaster (Borland)]

Post by Ingvar Nilsen
John has to be a good guy, I tend to like people who have cats, I love
cats myself :-)

I'm not that picky. I love almost all animals, and have (according to
others) quite a knack with them. But my lifestyle (all the travel I do)
doesn't fit well with higher maintenance animals like dogs, horses,
etc. right now.

Maybe after I 'retire' and go somewhere I have lots more land ... don't
think I'd want to work on a farm again, though.

[David Clegg]

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
I love almost all animals, and have (according to
others) quite a knack with them.

AHA! That explains why you cope so well in here. ;-)
--
Cheers,
David Clegg
***@gmail.com

Vote 1 http://cc.borland.com/codecentral/ccweb.exe/listing?id=21489 :-)
Now supports Google Groups searching with Dyna-extend(tm) technology!

QualityCentral. The best way to bug Borland about bugs.
http://qc.borland.com

"I know I'm not usually a praying man, but if you're up there, please
Superman, help me!" - Homer Simpson

[John Kaster (Borland)]

Post by David Clegg
AHA! That explains why you cope so well in here. ;-)

Humans are animals, too.

[Ingvar Nilsen]

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
Humans are animals, too.

Agreed! Didn't know you had such a wide horizon!

[Alvaro GP]

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
Maybe after I 'retire' and go somewhere I have lots more land ...
don't think I'd want to work on a farm again, though.

I think that you will find much greener pastures in Microsoft..

;-)

[John Kaster (Borland)]

Post by Alvaro GP
I think that you will find much greener pastures in Microsoft

Perhaps, but I don't foresee a move to Redmond.

[Ingvar Nilsen]

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
I'm not that picky. I love almost all animals

Agreed! I grew up out in the forest, almost literally.

[John Kaster (Borland)]

Post by Ed Dressel
can we have a video :-)

Not a bad idea. Will see if my daughter wants to run the camera ;)

[Rick Carter]

Post by John Kaster (Borland)

Post by Ed Dressel
can we have a video :-)

Not a bad idea. Will see if my daughter wants to run the camera ;)

While you herd the four cats?

Actually, I was hoping the video would be of you using your persuasive
techniques on top management and legal staff.

Rick Carter
***@despammed.com
Chair, Delphi/Paradox SIG, Cincinnati PC Users Group

--- posted by geoForum on http://delphi.newswhat.com

[John Kaster (Borland)]

Post by Rick Carter
Actually, I was hoping the video would be of you using your persuasive
techniques on top management and legal staff.

The Passion of the Christ has already been released ;)

[Scott Roberts]

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
What would you rather see: another confusing or incomplete answer, or a
firm and clear answer on Borland's commitment to Delphi?

Firm and clear, of course.

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
It takes a while for the latter, and to get legal and PR to agree to
the public commitment. It has been in process since before I posted the
email here. I prefer to get something as important as this as right as
it can be the first time because IMO there won't be any more second
chances on this subject.

I think you are right.

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
So, you're just going to have to wait until the people managing Delphi
are happy with the message that will be put out. Sorry.

Sounds like some of your customers are tired of waiting.

[John Kaster (Borland)]

Post by Scott Roberts
Sounds like some of your customers are tired of waiting.

I absolutely sympathize. That's not going to make me put out something
I'm not happy with, though.

[Brian Moelk]

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
What would you rather see: another confusing or incomplete answer, or a
firm and clear answer on Borland's commitment to Delphi?

Certainly, the latter.

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
It takes a while for the latter, and to get legal and PR to agree to
the public commitment. It has been in process since before I posted the
email here.

How long did it take Borland to prepare your 2nd quarter conference call
remarks?
What about Mr. Arnold's offhand remarks regarding Delphi in his interviews?

ISTM, that this is part of the problem. Borland executives seem to be
pretty loose when it comes to talking about IDEs being mature products, but
very cautious when stating their commitment to Delphi going forward.

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
I prefer to get something as important as this as right as
it can be the first time because IMO there won't be any more second
chances on this subject.

Agreed. You might not even have a first chance.

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
So, you're just going to have to wait until the people managing Delphi
are happy with the message that will be put out. Sorry.

Indeed, and if we hit 1 month elapsed time, it will certainly be even more
disappointing.

BTW, what's the status of the Delphi road map that was ready back in June?

--
Brian Moelk
***@NObrainendeavorSPAM.FORcomME
http://www.brainendeavor.com

[Henrick Hellström [StreamSec]]

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
What would you rather see: another confusing or incomplete answer, or a
firm and clear answer on Borland's commitment to Delphi?

FWIW I would personally be much more impressed by him stating that
Delphi is a great tool, that the Pascal based syntax is swell for
practically any kind of development, and that the continued superiority
of the tool is an integral part of the Borland trade mark and the
identity of the company.

[Abdullah Kauchali]

Post by Henrick Hellström [StreamSec]
FWIW I would personally be much more impressed by him stating that
Delphi is a great tool, that the Pascal based syntax is swell for
practically any kind of development, and that the continued superiority
of the tool is an integral part of the Borland trade mark and the
identity of the company.

Har har, that sort of wording is going to tie up any legal department
for months! ;-P

[Henrick Hellström [StreamSec]]

Post by Abdullah Kauchali

Post by Henrick Hellström [StreamSec]
FWIW I would personally be much more impressed by him stating that
Delphi is a great tool, that the Pascal based syntax is swell for
practically any kind of development, and that the continued
superiority of the tool is an integral part of the Borland trade mark
and the identity of the company.

Har har, that sort of wording is going to tie up any legal department
for months! ;-P

Maybe you refer to the use of the legal term "trade mark", but that
aside I think you're wrong. My wording doesn't contain any promises or
firm commitment at all, but consists only of expressions of sentiment
and personal opinion. This is IMHO much better than if the Borland CEO
would be giving the impression he feels he is under some kind of
involuntary obligation to support Delphi for the next five to ten years,
even if that would indeed be expressed in legally binding terms.

[Abdullah Kauchali]

Post by Henrick Hellström [StreamSec]
Maybe you refer to the use of the legal term "trade mark", but that
aside I think you're wrong. My wording doesn't contain any promises or
firm commitment at all, but consists only of expressions of sentiment
and personal opinion. This is IMHO much better than if the Borland CEO
would be giving the impression he feels he is under some kind of
involuntary obligation to support Delphi for the next five to ten years,
even if that would indeed be expressed in legally binding terms.

Henrick, I agree with you 100%. (I was being sarcastic! <g>)

[Larry Drews]

Post by Henrick Hellström [StreamSec]

Post by Abdullah Kauchali

Post by Henrick Hellström [StreamSec]
FWIW I would personally be much more impressed by him stating that
Delphi is a great tool, that the Pascal based syntax is swell for
practically any kind of development, and that the continued
superiority of the tool is an integral part of the Borland trade mark
and the identity of the company.

Har har, that sort of wording is going to tie up any legal department
for months! ;-P

Maybe you refer to the use of the legal term "trade mark", but that
aside I think you're wrong. My wording doesn't contain any promises or
firm commitment at all, but consists only of expressions of sentiment
and personal opinion. This is IMHO much better than if the Borland CEO
would be giving the impression he feels he is under some kind of
involuntary obligation to support Delphi for the next five to ten years,
even if that would indeed be expressed in legally binding terms.

I take it you haven't defended that language in a US court of law. There
is enough in that sentence to keep Borland busy for the next 10 years with
shareholder lawsuits if they have change plans or emphasis in any way.

[Abdullah Kauchali]

Post by Larry Drews
I take it you haven't defended that language in a US court of law. There
is enough in that sentence to keep Borland busy for the next 10 years with
shareholder lawsuits if they have change plans or emphasis in any way.

Well, how about a disclaimer saying that plans could change!!!!!!!!!

[Henrick Hellström [StreamSec]]

Post by Larry Drews
I take it you haven't defended that language in a US court of law. There
is enough in that sentence to keep Borland busy for the next 10 years with
shareholder lawsuits if they have change plans or emphasis in any way.

Right, I haven't defended that language in a US court of law. What I do
know is that it is obviously no secret that Delphi is a very important
product in the Borland portfolio (being a cash-cow and all <g>).
Promoting such a product and reiterating its importance for the company
would hardly constitute a substantial change of plans or emphasis. It
would "just" be marketing of an existing and well known product, and it
would be kind of stupid to file a shareholder lawsuit because the
company is promoting its nicest little cash-cow. But then again people
are stupid, some more and more often than others. :P

[John Kaster (Borland)]

I read Scott's message meaning that any delay here may make on-lookers
think the main issue is not the wording of the commitment and such,

That's a risk I'm willing to take.

[Abdullah Kauchali]

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
That's a risk I'm willing to take.

Firstly, is it necessary to take that risk? Secondly, for how long are
you willing to take that risk?

Remembering of course, that the risk translates into decisions against
the use of Delphi for forthcoming projects.

[Abdullah Kauchali]

As long as it takes.
Was there an actual point to your questions?

:)

I get the feeling that you are not entirely appreciating the impact of
the "wait". Beyond that, the argument is moot.

The real risk of a delayed answer is an impact vis-a-vis the choice of
the development tool for some of us and our forthcoming projects.

The longer we wait, the worse it is for some of us Delphi protagonists
in the land of fickle minded management.

That was the point of my questions.

[John Kaster (Borland)]

Post by Abdullah Kauchali
I get the feeling that you are not entirely appreciating the impact of
the "wait".

I think you're mistaken.

[Abdullah Kauchali]

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
I think you're mistaken.

Ok. :)

(I'll continue waiting patiently then)

(Believe me, I so badly want something real from the official source, I
have a few seriously loud orifices around here (my work environ.) that I
want to so badly plug shut with official Borland material - effectively
for good! Nothing will give me more satisifaction than that!)

All the best!

[Ed Dressel]

Post by Abdullah Kauchali
I get the feeling that you are not entirely appreciating the impact of
the "wait". Beyond that, the argument is moot.

I think the appreciate the impact of not getting the statement right.

[Abdullah Kauchali]

Post by Ed Dressel
I think the appreciate the impact of not getting the statement right.

Such as?

[John Kaster (Borland)]

Post by Abdullah Kauchali
Firstly, is it necessary to take that risk?

Obviously it is. Otherwise, the content would already be posted to BDN.

Post by Abdullah Kauchali
Secondly, for how long
are you willing to take that risk?

As long as it takes.

Was there an actual point to your questions?

[John Kaster (Borland)]

Is such a commitment worth much?

1) Evidently it is to some
2) It's better than no response at all

[Ingvar Nilsen]

Post by John Kaster (Borland)

Is such a commitment worth much?

1) Evidently it is to some

I think it should be seen in the light of the initial post in this
thread. How do one best convince a customer that going in for Delphi and
Borland is a wise decision?

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
2) It's better than no response at all

Hm.. Investments bind, even with management changes, so investments
count, commitments may mean something if a company has a record of
following them up(Not Borland specific).

To use other words, I would much more like to see a full page, full
colour Delphi 2006 ad in a computer magazine, than a commitment on the
web! :-)

[Ingvar Nilsen]

Post by John Kaster (Borland)

Post by Scott Roberts
Speaks volumes, doesn't it?

What would you rather see: another confusing or incomplete answer, or
a firm and clear answer on Borland's commitment to Delphi?

I read Scott's message meaning that any delay here may make on-lookers
think the main issue is not the wording of the commitment and such, but
that Borland management people need time to find out themselves what
they really want with Delphi.

An internal uncertainty in other words, as it may look from the outside.

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
It takes a while for the latter, and to get legal and PR to agree to
the public commitment.

Is such a commitment worth much? I tend to judge a company's product
commitment by the investments made in marketing the product, to extend
the user base and reach new customers.

[Scott Roberts]

I read Scott's message meaning that any delay here may make on-lookers
think the main issue is not the wording of the commitment and such, but
that Borland management people need time to find out themselves what
they really want with Delphi.

What I really meant was "until there is a message there is no message".

[John Kaster (Borland)]

Post by Scott Roberts
What I really meant was "until there is a message there is no
message".

True. Except, of course, for the negative message people will read into
the delay in posting the message.

[Eryk]

John,

Post by John Kaster (Borland)
What would you rather see: another confusing or incomplete answer, or a
firm and clear answer on Borland's commitment to Delphi?
It takes a while for the latter, and to get legal and PR to agree to
the public commitment.

I used to work for a certain government department (not the US government -
UK) building and maintaining a management information system for a certain
programme that the department ran. This programme relied on thousands of
contracted organisations providing services to hundreds of thousands of
clients and every so often (usually due to clumsy political speeches) the
rumours would surface that the programme was going to be cancelled. Needless
to say this sort of thing tended to make the contractors nervous since they
had mostly aligned their entire business models to this programme --- also,
being a public body, the department involved had to be very careful not to
be misleading or accused of acting in bad faith (both for poitical and legal
reasons).

(What has this got to do with Delphi? --- Coming to that....)

For three years while I was there these rumours surfaced and we (yes, the IT
section ...we had the fancy 'direct fax from desktop' stuff) routinely
issued the standard (truthful) denial along the lines of: "The Department
remains fully committed to Programme X and has no plans to either
discontinue it or reduce funding levels". There was never any need for wide
consultations --- the truth is the truth and we banged out the press release
on the basis of a 30 second phone call to the operations director. Then, one
day, the rumour surfaced again and this time the director told us that the
marketing department needed time to draft a new statement. This then duly
did (after about 3 weeks of refining the drafts with the legal people) and
when it finally emerged it was a pretty masterful mixture of superficial
committment blended with as much plausible deniability as they thought they
could get away with. The vast majority of the contractors fell for this ruse
hook, line and sinker ...we in IT knew the truth of course ...the programme
was already earmarked for cancellation in 9 months time ...we were already
working on its replacement.

I fully acknowledge the limitations of extrapolation, but it is my
experience that the degree of cogitation required prior to issuing such
statements is directly proportional to the amount of obfuscation and
misdirection being incorporated. If you have no intention whatsoever of
abandoning or downgrading something then 'consultation' (particularly with
lawyers) is pointless ...you can't be sued for telling the truth. On the
other hand, if you are trying to avoid making any committments or (worse)
you have already decided to dump something but need to obfuscate the
decision for a while, then careful thought consultation and drafting is
required to provide sufficient plausible deniability in the face of either
legal action or a customer backlash.

Eryk

[Esteban Pacheco]

I must admit that the Marco's Cantú book does helped me promoting D2005.

THANKS MARCO!!

Oh and it is a good book by the way, i'm not done with it yet. :)

Really guys!, i know that the Delphi team is one of the best teams around
Borland, but they can't do it all, please give some marketing to Delphi, a
couple of press releases talking about the good stuff of the product or at
least mention it everytime you guys bring up the SDO / ALM will help.

Make an official statement on Borland's commitment to support Delphi, that
is something VERY GOOD to show to upper management.

Fix that Borland wear shop work, offer Delphi tshirts, pins, etc.
everylittle thing helps. I will proudly wear a Delphi Developer Inside
tshirt :)

More books, example: The ECO book promises to be good stuff to come, keep
it on the Delphi side.

It's Borlands all time best tool, help us to help Borland.

We will do our part as customers, and promoters, but give us the tools to do
it.


Esteban Pacheco
A Delphi Programming Blog
http://estebanp.blogspot.com

Post by Günther Schoch
Hello to all
I think it makes sense to explain here a "real world marketing case" in
order to discuss perhaps a better approach that could be made by the
borland marketing
We deliver since Delphi 1 real large software product to the army. For a
long time we were far ahead of any other product combination (e.g. C++ or
VB ...).
Since about 2 years our opponents try to define Delphi as a "risky
platform".
We continued to developed Win32 Delphi code an are still a lot
cheaper/faster/stable as our oppoents. Now they do is to try to "put
Delphi on the black list = not allowed for new projects".
In the meantime we migrated some 100'000 lines and a bigger trial project
to D2005.NET. And D2005.NET is since SP4(unoffical <g>) a real great
platform!
What a great message to the customer (we would expect). They have not to
rewrite projects (Total Sum >> 10 Mio$) but can migrate with just about
10% of the initial costs to .NET (if they believe it's time to shift).
We do run Win32/.NET parallel. WHERE IS THE PROBLEM?
And there is still a problem. They do not trust Delphi's future. Purely
emotional! Microsofts marketing machine against what = the borland vacuum?
Please do not start to discuss technical. We are talking about marketing
=emotions.
Example: To show during a meeting the new book "Delphi 2005 of Marco
Cantu" was better than all the Borland marketing support for Delphi during
the last 2 years.
Borland does offer some technical sales persons for such meetings ...
forget it. Most of us in this forum do know more about Delphi and are
better used to sell projects. Ok e.g. John Kuster would be a great show
but he cannot to the whole worldwide presentation and talks by his own.
What I do need is a clear strategy.
I cannot convince my customers by "ALM" and "JAVA..Eclypse..do not know
what" ideas.
It does to not help to inform my customer that "Delphi is a nice little
cash cow" (or that "Dexter the bull" will solve all his problems).
it's up to Borland to provide a clear strategy that can be explained in
easy words to a strategic customer!
regards
Günther

[Sarah]

Post by Esteban Pacheco
I must admit that the Marco's Cantú book does helped me promoting D2005.

I know its a good book..
But how are you guys using it as a marketing tool?
Do you supply that book to a client who is skeptical about you using Delphi for their project
and ask them to go through the book to find how powerful Delphi is?

Thanks,
Sarah

[Günther Schoch]

Post by Sarah
But how are you guys using it as a marketing tool?

Hello Sarah

thank you for the feedback. I used it in 2 way

a) to show that Delphi is still alive ... "and here is the newest book
to cover all ..."

b) and to stop the semi technical discussion by telling "if you have
read this book including the chapters about D20005.NET and you do still
have question about the .NET migration than ..."

regards

Günther

[Lauchlan M]

Post by Günther Schoch
thank you for the feedback. I used it in 2 way
a) to show that Delphi is still alive ... "and here is the newest book
to cover all ..."
b) and to stop the semi technical discussion by telling "if you have
read this book including the chapters about D20005.NET and you do still
have question about the .NET migration than ..."

I guess you could also point to the ECO chapter and ask what the MS
equivalent to ECO is, or ask what MS are doing about requirements
management, etc.

Lauchlan M