InstallAware: Is it going to stay?

[Farshad]

Today I had to do a minor modification in my D2007 installation. I ran the
setup, chose Modify and asked it to removed IntraWeb from installed
components. No kidding, it took more than two hours and still waiting for it
to finish. I just asked it to remove a single component and I had to
interrupt working for more than two hours! A similar operation could be done
in a matter of minutes or even seconds in Delphi 7.

Will there be some serious improvements to the Installer in D2009? The
current picture is far from being acceptable.

[Jan Derk]

Post by Farshad
Today I had to do a minor modification in my D2007 installation. I ran the
setup, chose Modify and asked it to removed IntraWeb from installed
components. No kidding, it took more than two hours and still waiting for it
to finish. I just asked it to remove a single component and I had to
interrupt working for more than two hours! A similar operation could be done
in a matter of minutes or even seconds in Delphi 7.
Will there be some serious improvements to the Installer in D2009? The
current picture is far from being acceptable.

Well, J# Together and the dog slow Visual Studio help viewer will still be in
D2009. So I would not have too much hope to see a speedy native installer. But
then again I also thought we would never get Unicode.

Besides being extreme bloatware, InstallAware haven't got any ethics either.
They stole competitor website designs not once, but twice:

http://msmvps.com/blogs/installsite/archive/2006/12/11/412661.aspx

Jan Derk

[somebody]

Post by Jan Derk
Besides being extreme bloatware, InstallAware haven't got any ethics either.
http://msmvps.com/blogs/installsite/archive/2006/12/11/412661.aspx

http://www.installaware.com/news-stefan.htm :

<q>
We do not waste our customer's money on expensive website designs, or other
"luxury" marketing spending.
</q>

Well, they may be thieves, but at least they are not liars <g>.

[Farshad]

"somebody"

Post by somebody
<q>
We do not waste our customer's money on expensive website designs, or other
"luxury" marketing spending.
</q>
Well, they may be thieves, but at least they are not liars <g>.

They do waste my time each time I tend to Install/Modify/Uninstall RAD
Studio. Installing D2007 is not a process, it's a ritual!<g>

[David Farrell-Garcia]

Post by Farshad
"somebody"

Post by somebody
<q>
We do not waste our customer's money on expensive website designs,
or other "luxury" marketing spending.
</q>
Well, they may be thieves, but at least they are not liars <g>.

They do waste my time each time I tend to Install/Modify/Uninstall
RAD Studio. Installing D2007 is not a process, it's a ritual!<g>

I am not sure they are the culprit. I use IA for all of my
installations and the uninstalls are fast.

[Roddy Pratt]

Post by somebody
<q>
We do not waste our customer's money on expensive website designs, or
other "luxury" marketing spending.
</q>

With any luck they'll get to waste it on a bunch of lawyers instead.

With this attitude of total disrespect for others' IP, what do you
think the chances are of them incorporating dubiously 'borrowed' code
into their own products. And therefore, what chance of their customers
(that's us, as well as Codegear) unknowingly distributing installers
which infringe third-party copyright..?

- Roddy

[Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu]

Post by Roddy Pratt
With any luck they'll get to waste it on a bunch of lawyers instead.
With this attitude of total disrespect for others' IP, what do you
think the chances are of them incorporating dubiously 'borrowed' code
into their own products. And therefore, what chance of their customers
(that's us, as well as Codegear) unknowingly distributing installers
which infringe third-party copyright..?

Unless something has changed, IA is in Turkey. Turkey has IP provisions of
course, but they aren't as tight as European standards or as tight as US so
enforcement would be very difficult to say the least.

[Farshad]

"Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu"

Post by Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu
Unless something has changed, IA is in Turkey. Turkey has IP provisions of
course, but they aren't as tight as European standards or as tight as US
so enforcement would be very difficult to say the least.

InstallAware is a US company, its founder is a Turk (maybe he is a US
citizen by now). They should be subject to US IP rules.

[Alexandre Machado]

Post by somebody
Well, they may be thieves, but at least they are not liars <g>.

The most funny thing in InstallAware site is "Read the CodeGear
InstallAware case study"... LOL!!!!

Regards

[Farshad]

Post by Alexandre Machado

Post by somebody
Well, they may be thieves, but at least they are not liars <g>.

The most funny thing in InstallAware site is "Read the CodeGear
InstallAware case study"... LOL!!!!

(Imaginary) Excerpt from the case study:
"Thanks to the new InstallAware patented SuperSlowAware (SSA) technology.
Using this new technology, now CodeGear RAD Studio can be installed in less
than 2 days."

[Markus.Humm]

Hello,

afaik Delphi 2009 or whatever it's called will contain some updated
DExplorer and be independent of that unnecessary .NET 2.0 SDK. only the
.NET runtime is required.

Greetings

Markus

[Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)]

Post by Markus.Humm
independent of that unnecessary .NET 2.0 SDK.

That is correct.

[Kryvich]

Post by Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)

Post by Markus.Humm
independent of that unnecessary .NET 2.0 SDK.

That is correct.

Good. Step in right direction. :)

[David Farrell-Garcia]

Post by Jan Derk
Besides being extreme bloatware, InstallAware haven't got any ethics
http://msmvps.com/blogs/installsite/archive/2006/12/11/412661.aspx
Jan Derk

Maybe they all used the same off-the-shelf templates or web designer?
:-)

[Mr. G]

Post by David Farrell-Garcia
Maybe they all used the same off-the-shelf templates or web designer?
:-)

for sure template monster or free templates have that one :-)

[Jan Derk]

Post by Jan Derk
Besides being extreme bloatware, InstallAware haven't got any ethics
http://msmvps.com/blogs/installsite/archive/2006/12/11/412661.aspx

Maybe they all used the same off-the-shelf templates or web designer? :-)

And the same text writer ;)

Jan Derk

[Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu]

IA is extremely slow. It takes me forever to install Delphi on PC's.. and
because of install testing, I do it a lot...
--
Keep up to date - read the IntraWeb blog!
http://www.atozed.com/intraweb/blog/

Post by Farshad
Today I had to do a minor modification in my D2007 installation. I ran the
setup, chose Modify and asked it to removed IntraWeb from installed
components. No kidding, it took more than two hours and still waiting for
it to finish. I just asked it to remove a single component and I had to
interrupt working for more than two hours! A similar operation could be
done in a matter of minutes or even seconds in Delphi 7.
Will there be some serious improvements to the Installer in D2009? The
current picture is far from being acceptable.

[Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu]

In fact.. I can install Windows 2008 from SCRATCH factors faster than Delphi
versions using IA.
--
Keep up to date - read the IntraWeb blog!
http://www.atozed.com/intraweb/blog/

Post by Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu
IA is extremely slow. It takes me forever to install Delphi on PC's.. and
because of install testing, I do it a lot...
--
Keep up to date - read the IntraWeb blog!
http://www.atozed.com/intraweb/blog/

Post by Farshad
Today I had to do a minor modification in my D2007 installation. I ran
the setup, chose Modify and asked it to removed IntraWeb from installed
components. No kidding, it took more than two hours and still waiting for
it to finish. I just asked it to remove a single component and I had to
interrupt working for more than two hours! A similar operation could be
done in a matter of minutes or even seconds in Delphi 7.
Will there be some serious improvements to the Installer in D2009? The
current picture is far from being acceptable.

[Alexandre Machado]

Post by Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu
In fact.. I can install Windows 2008 from SCRATCH factors faster than Delphi
versions using IA.

I installed Ubuntu in a virtual machine yesterday 2 times faster than
reinstalling BDS 2006 help files.

Regards.

[David Farrell-Garcia]

Post by Alexandre Machado
I installed Ubuntu in a virtual machine yesterday 2 times faster than
reinstalling BDS 2006 help files.
Regards.

Blame Microsoft about the help file merge thing. It takes an enormous
amount of time to merge help files in that system.

[Alexandre Machado]

Post by David Farrell-Garcia
Blame Microsoft about the help file merge thing.

I do! I really do! Thats all I do! All I ask CodeGear is to get rid of
MS crap, before is too late.

Regards.

[Rick Carter]

Post by Alexandre Machado

Post by David Farrell-Garcia
Blame Microsoft about the help file merge thing.

I do! I really do! Thats all I do! All I ask CodeGear is to get rid of
MS crap, before is too late.

<sarcasm>
Yeah, what we really need is a version of Delphi that won't run under
Microsoft Windows.
</sarcasm>

Rick Carter
***@despammed.com
Chair, Delphi/Paradox SIG, Cincinnati PC Users Group

--- posted by geoForum on http://delphi.newswhat.com

[David Erbas-White]

Post by Rick Carter

Post by Alexandre Machado

Post by David Farrell-Garcia
Blame Microsoft about the help file merge thing.

I do! I really do! Thats all I do! All I ask CodeGear is to get rid of
MS crap, before is too late.

<sarcasm>
Yeah, what we really need is a version of Delphi that won't run under
Microsoft Windows.
</sarcasm>

D8? (g,d,&r)

David Erbas-White

[Q Correll]

David,

| D8? (g,d,&r)

LOL!

[Markus.Humm]

Post by Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu
In fact.. I can install Windows 2008 from SCRATCH factors faster than Delphi
versions using IA.

Hello,

does Windows 2008 use MSI as installation technology?
;-)

Greetings

Markus

[Serge Dosyukov (Dragon Soft)]

Who knows what would it be internally?
But this what WI team is to say about it

http://blogs.msdn.com/windows_installer_team/archive/2008/04/29/what-changed-in-windows-installer-msi-in-windows-vista-service-pack-1.aspx

Post by Markus.Humm

Post by Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu
In fact.. I can install Windows 2008 from SCRATCH factors faster than
Delphi versions using IA.

Hello,
does Windows 2008 use MSI as installation technology?
;-)
Greetings
Markus

[Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)]

Post by Farshad
Will there be some serious improvements to the Installer in D2009?

Yes, there will be.

[Dave Nottage [TeamB]]

Post by Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)

Post by Farshad
Will there be some serious improvements to the Installer in D2009?

Yes, there will be.

Can you make any specific comments about install times? <g>

[Nathanial Woolls]

I think we are seeing full installs -- help and third party -- in about
45 minutes, with the large help install taking much of that.
Delphi itself installs in about 10-15 minutes.

Under Windows Vista?

[Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)]

Post by Nathanial Woolls
Under Windows Vista?

I can't say -- I only install myself on XP, but I don't know why it
would be much slower.

[John Kaster (CodeGear)]

Post by Nathanial Woolls
Under Windows Vista?

I've had fast installs with Vista 64-bit.

[Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)]

Post by Dave Nottage [TeamB]
Can you make any specific comments about install times? <g>

I think we are seeing full installs -- help and third party -- in about
45 minutes, with the large help install taking much of that.

Delphi itself installs in about 10-15 minutes.

[danny heijl]

I think we are seeing full installs -- help and third party -- in about
45 minutes, with the large help install taking much of that.
Delphi itself installs in about 10-15 minutes.

Are you aware of Wix? The V3 version is excellent, it's open source, and
it's good enough for MS. It has a learning curve, and authoring a
setup is a fair bit of work, but it pays in the end.

Danny
---

[somebody]

Post by Dave Nottage [TeamB]
Can you make any specific comments about install times? <g>

I think we are seeing full installs -- help and third party -- in about
45 minutes, with the large help install taking much of that.

If someone told back in 1988 that me that in 20 years, an application
installation in 45 minutes would be considered fast, I would have slapped
him silly.

[Dave Nottage [TeamB]]

Post by somebody

I think we are seeing full installs -- help and third party -- in
about 45 minutes, with the large help install taking much of that.

If someone told back in 1988 that me that in 20 years, an application
installation in 45 minutes would be considered fast, I would have
slapped him silly.

Where has anyone considered that 45 minutes is "fast"?

[somebody]

Post by Dave Nottage [TeamB]

Post by somebody

I think we are seeing full installs -- help and third party -- in
about 45 minutes, with the large help install taking much of that.

If someone told back in 1988 that me that in 20 years, an application
installation in 45 minutes would be considered fast, I would have
slapped him silly.

Where has anyone considered that 45 minutes is "fast"?

Semantics police? Fine: If someone told back in 1988 that me that in 20
years, an application installation in 45 minutes would be considered a
*serious [speed] improvement [over a previous version]*, I would have
slapped him silly.

[steve hughes]

I remember installing office around that time which came on about 20
floppy disc. That took years, cause you would get to disk 19 and get a
crc error or something just as bad.

Post by somebody

Post by Dave Nottage [TeamB]
Can you make any specific comments about install times? <g>

I think we are seeing full installs -- help and third party -- in
about 45 minutes, with the large help install taking much of that.

If someone told back in 1988 that me that in 20 years, an application
installation in 45 minutes would be considered fast, I would have
slapped him silly.

[Kryvich]

I think we are seeing full installs -- help and third party -- in about
45 minutes, with the large help install taking much of that.
Delphi itself installs in about 10-15 minutes.

I suggest to create 2 setup files: MSI-based and InnoSetup-based.
Then you can count both downloads, and choose one for the future
Delphi 2010.

[Alexandre Machado]

Post by Kryvich

I think we are seeing full installs -- help and third party -- in about
45 minutes, with the large help install taking much of that.
Delphi itself installs in about 10-15 minutes.

I suggest to create 2 setup files: MSI-based and InnoSetup-based.
Then you can count both downloads, and choose one for the future
Delphi 2010.

Why does it have to be MSI-based?
I installed latest NetBeans version last week. It is not MSI-based.
Soo.......

Regards

[Alexandre Machado]

Post by Alexandre Machado
Why does it have to be MSI-based?
I installed latest NetBeans version last week. It is not MSI-based.
Soo.......

In fact, two bad things in Delphi are MS-crappy technologies: Help
system and install system. It will take centuries to (not) convince me
that those are good choices. An Inno Setup (or other) based install
would be much much better. About the help system... well, google is
faster than this new windows help.
Why don't abandon that?

Regards

[Ivan]

Post by Alexandre Machado
Why don't abandon that?

They can't as long as they want .net help -- that is as long as they support .net :) MS only allows
the .net help to be distributed in that format. But it would be really nice to have an option to
use real help for win32 so at least the help that is there would not be buried in useless .net stuff.

[Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)]

But it would be really nice to have an option to use real help for
win32 so at least the help that is there would not be buried in
useless .net stuff.

If you can find the Win32 SDK - a critical part of our help -- in
another format besides HTML Help 2, then I am /all/ ears. ;-)

[Alexandre Machado]

Post by Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)

But it would be really nice to have an option to use real help for
win32 so at least the help that is there would not be buried in
useless .net stuff.

If you can find the Win32 SDK - a critical part of our help -- in
another format besides HTML Help 2, then I am /all/ ears. ;-)

Why aren't you that receptive about Install-slow-aware? How many
customers loosing hours to install a 2 Mb file is needed to change that?

About help: Let MS crap there. Let MS .NET and Win32 SDK in HTML Help.
Delphi help in WinHelp (old and good), HTML, Wiki, plain text, smoke
signal, whatever. Anything is better than that. Please, read about my
third encounter with BDS 2006 non working help.

Regards

[Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)]

Post by Alexandre Machado
Why aren't you that receptive about Install-slow-aware?

As I've noted, Tiburon will have dramatically faster install times.

Post by Alexandre Machado
About help: Let MS crap there. Let MS .NET and Win32 SDK in HTML
Help. Delphi help in WinHelp (old and good), HTML, Wiki, plain text,
smoke signal, whatever. Anything is better than that. Please, read
about my third encounter with BDS 2006 non working help.

I agree that help presents a lot of, well, "challenges". However, if we
don't provide help for Win32 API calls, the challenges increase, not
decrease.

[Anders Isaksson]

Post by Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)
I agree that help presents a lot of, well, "challenges". However, if we
don't provide help for Win32 API calls, the challenges increase, not
decrease.

In D1, the Help menu has one item for Win API and another for Delphi
In D2, the Help menu has one item, Help Topics
In D5, the Help menu has one item for Windows SDK and another for Delphi Help
In D2006, the Help menu has one item, Borland Help

You have tried both integrated and separated help files before, what is the
big problem with separate help files today?

[Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)]

Post by Anders Isaksson
You have tried both integrated and separated help files before, what
is the big problem with separate help files today?

If they are separate, the help gets way more complicated and slower.
Slow help is one of the big complaints.

[Ivan]

I think the idea is that if they were separate then only the Microsoft supplied help would need to
be in the new format.

[Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)]

Post by Ivan
I think the idea is that if they were separate then only the
Microsoft supplied help would need to be in the new format.

Well, uhm, yes, of course. But combining two formats together into a
single entity is no mean feat.

[Ivan]

The idea I think is that they would not be a single entity then. They would be two completely
separate help systems. Obviously this is inferior to a single help system which is a single entity
IF that single systems works ie provides help to people.

[Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)]

They would be two completely separate help systems.

Any thoughts on how to manage that so that people don't get confused,
or complain about F1 lookup speed? We're looking into it, but it's not
an easy problem to solve. You don't want the cure to be worse than the
disease.

[Alexandre Machado]

Post by Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)

They would be two completely separate help systems.

Any thoughts on how to manage that so that people don't get confused,
or complain about F1 lookup speed? We're looking into it, but it's not
an easy problem to solve. You don't want the cure to be worse than the
disease.

Well, just to give you a fresh example of the combination of these two
technologies: My BDS 2006 help stopped working again, and after almost
one hour repairing BDS 2006 installation, guess what? It still does not
work. I've tried this *today*, 1st august.

In BDS 2006 install program, when I checked "Repair" radio button and
clicked NEXT, it took exactly 8 minutes to change to the other page.
Someone not used to Install-slow-aware would think that the program froze.

Tried each single tip about solutions for this problem I could found
using google and BDS 2006 help does not work, period.
I will have to live with that, cause I will not format my HD to have BDS
2006 help working again, or should I?

This same thing can happen in D2007, D2009, D..... Until when?

Regards

[Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)]

Post by Alexandre Machado
Someone not used to Install-slow-aware would think that the program froze.

Interestingly, BDS 2006 didn't use InstallAware. It was installed with
INstallShield. Hmm.

Post by Alexandre Machado
This same thing can happen in D2007, D2009, D..... Until when?

Can it in D2009? I think not.

Not to mitigate your troubles. I don't think anyone would go out of
their way to say that the help doesn't have challenges. We all agree
on that.

[Alexandre Machado]

Post by Alexandre Machado
Someone not used to Install-slow-aware would think that the program

Post by Alexandre Machado
froze.

Interestingly, BDS 2006 didn't use InstallAware. It was installed with
INstallShield. Hmm.

Wow! You got me!
But now I see that you have change something bad for something worse....

Post by Alexandre Machado
don't think anyone would go out of their way to say that the help doesn't have challenges.
We all agree

Do you agree that help system is not rocket science? It should not
present so many problems to Delphi customers. If it is happening since
BDS 2005, almost 4 years now, something is terribly wrong with it.

Regards

[Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)]

Post by Alexandre Machado
Do you agree that help system is not rocket science?

Sure, I'll agree to that, if you agree that it is far more complicated
than you know. That's not an excuse -- we should have top quality help
-- but it is not a trivial, simply-solved problem.

Post by Alexandre Machado
If it is happening since BDS 2005, almost 4 years now, something is
terribly wrong with it.

No one is or has denied that.

[David Erbas-White]

Post by Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)

Post by Alexandre Machado
Do you agree that help system is not rocket science?

Sure, I'll agree to that, if you agree that it is far more complicated
than you know. That's not an excuse -- we should have top quality help
-- but it is not a trivial, simply-solved problem.

Post by Alexandre Machado
If it is happening since BDS 2005, almost 4 years now, something is
terribly wrong with it.

No one is or has denied that.

The problem isn't just, intrinsically, the help. The problem is that it
has gone on for so long. Improvements are being made, but frankly, they
should be (IMHO) higher priority with more resources applied.

David Erbas-White

[Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)]

Improvements are being made, but frankly, they should be (IMHO)
higher priority with more resources applied.

I completely agree.

[Graeme]

Post by Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)

Post by Alexandre Machado
If it is happening since BDS 2005, almost 4 years now, something is
terribly wrong with it.

No one is or has denied that.

So why not go back to D7 style help? That was fast and worked perfectly.
And don't tell me it's because Microsoft decided to bring out a new help
system. We all know Microsoft doesn't get it right every time either.

PS:
I guess the same can be said for the old component palette bar in D7
compared to BDS 200x. ;-)

Graeme.

[Zbigniew Chwedoruk]

Post by Graeme
So why not go back to D7 style help? That was fast and worked perfectly.
And don't tell me it's because Microsoft decided to bring out a new help
system. We all know Microsoft doesn't get it right every time either.

I don't use D7, but if i remember Delphi up to D7 uses old (introduced
in Win95?) help format. This format is no longer supported in the
Windows Vista...

Zbyszek

[Alexandre Machado]

Post by Zbigniew Chwedoruk

Post by Graeme
So why not go back to D7 style help? That was fast and worked
perfectly. And don't tell me it's because Microsoft decided to bring
out a new help system. We all know Microsoft doesn't get it right
every time either.

I don't use D7, but if i remember Delphi up to D7 uses old (introduced
in Win95?) help format. This format is no longer supported in the
Windows Vista...
Zbyszek

So you guys using Vista and some old Delphi version, say D7, do not use
help at all, or did you download WinHelp for Vista from MS
(http://support.microsoft.com/kb/917607/en-us)?

So try this

http://java.sun.com/javase/technologies/desktop/javahelp/

It is slow too, but at least it does the job, and as a bonus
when you revive Kylix, help system will be much easier to port :)

Regards

[Pete Fraser]

That's not totally true - you can download a WinHelp viewer.

The main problem is that WinHelp was *very* limited in
what it could display and how many topics it could cope with.
As a help author, I can tell you that Delphi kept running up against
the WinHelp limits which was a real problem if you had lots of
components installed with help files. If you had a large component
collection such as Raize/DevExpress/TMS/LMD you would run
up against the limits.
That was probably why MS produced HtmlHelp2 which allows
the help files to be easily extended for extra components.
The other problem for CodeGear is that the new Win32 help files
are only in HtmlHelp2 format so rather than converting them all
to some other format it makes sense to use their native format.
So while it's a pain, it's the best move for the future - an hopefully
CodeGear/MS will work to make the interface faster. Once the
help has been indexed it's normally quite a bit faster and that only
has to happen when new help files are added - so not that often.
Rgds Pete

Post by Graeme
So why not go back to D7 style help? That was fast and worked perfectly.
And don't tell me it's because Microsoft decided to bring out a new help
system. We all know Microsoft doesn't get it right every time either.

I don't use D7, but if i remember Delphi up to D7 uses old (introduced in
Win95?) help format. This format is no longer supported in the Windows
Vista...

[Graeme]

Post by Zbigniew Chwedoruk
I don't use D7, but if i remember Delphi up to D7 uses old (introduced
in Win95?) help format. This format is no longer supported in the
Windows Vista...

Vista simply doesn't ship the help viewer (which I personally thing is
damn stupid - what about pre-Vista release applications?). But nothing
stops you from downloading it yourself. Alternatively, I think a
application install could maybe ship that help viewer as well and save
the user from downloading it themselves.

Graeme.

[TJC Support]

Post by Graeme
Vista simply doesn't ship the help viewer (which I personally thing is
damn stupid - what about pre-Vista release applications?). But nothing
stops you from downloading it yourself. Alternatively, I think a
application install could maybe ship that help viewer as well and save the
user from downloading it themselves.

Except that Microsoft prohibits developers from shipping the help viewer.
End users legally must download and install it themselves. Which I suppose
is Microsoft's way of making it too much of a pain to do, so that everyone
will abandon it.

Cheers,
Van Swofford
Tybee Jet Corp.

[Marco Caspers]

Graeme wrote:

<snip>

Post by Graeme
So why not go back to D7 style help? That was fast and worked
perfectly.

<snip>

The problem with that is that it isn't suitable for the amount of
information in the help database.

It was an absolute horror to add some extra information to it, and,
more often than not, you'd run "out of space" and had to remove other
things from it to be able to add the new info.

But other than that i agree that that system speedwise was superior, as
well as the information shown in a much more consistent way than that
it is nowadays.

So the thing they had to do when they introduced D8 was either develop
a new help system themselves, or, go with what microsoft provided.

The latter option was cheaper, so that's where they went.

Since now they're so heavily invested in it, there's no easy way of
pulling out of it.
Maybe in a year or 2 or 3 when the full help database is online in
wiki's it'll be ok...


--

[Kryvich]

Post by Marco Caspers
The problem with that is that it isn't suitable for the amount of
information in the help database.

CHM is the best alternative.

Post by Marco Caspers
Since now they're so heavily invested in it, there's no easy way of
pulling out of it.
Maybe in a year or 2 or 3 when the full help database is online in
wiki's it'll be ok...

They help tool can create CHM help files.
They just have to bind the CHM to the IDE.

[Alexandre Machado]

Post by Kryvich
They help tool can create CHM help files.
They just have to bind the CHM to the IDE.

Yes, the cheaper and easier solution, and given the coices, the best.

Regards

[Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)]

Post by Graeme
So why not go back to D7 style help?

WinHelp can't handle our help system.

[Roger Lascelles]

Post by Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)

They would be two completely separate help systems.

Any thoughts on how to manage that so that people don't get confused,
or complain about F1 lookup speed? We're looking into it, but it's not
an easy problem to solve. You don't want the cure to be worse than the
disease.

Perhaps you can process the Microsoft Win API help files and convert them to
some other help format where you can have speed and control over the search
process?

Roger Lascelles

[Pete Fraser]

Yes, of course CG *could* do that but would you rather
they converted the MS help files every time they do a release
or spend the money on making RS2xxxx a better product.
I know what I would want.
Rgds Pete

Post by Roger Lascelles

Post by Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)

They would be two completely separate help systems.

Any thoughts on how to manage that so that people don't get confused,
or complain about F1 lookup speed? We're looking into it, but it's not
an easy problem to solve. You don't want the cure to be worse than the
disease.

Perhaps you can process the Microsoft Win API help files and convert them
to some other help format where you can have speed and control over the
search process?

[Kryvich]

Post by Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)
Any thoughts on how to manage that so that people don't get confused,
or complain about F1 lookup speed? We're looking into it, but it's not
an easy problem to solve. You don't want the cure to be worse than the
disease.

Bind Delphi Help to the F1 key, and the platform help to the Alt-F1.

A developer always know where he/she want to search.

[Maël Hörz]

Post by Kryvich
Bind Delphi Help to the F1 key, and the platform help to the Alt-F1.
A developer always know where he/she want to search.

Agree, what would be the problem with this approach?

[DJSox]

Exactly!

Post by Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)
Any thoughts on how to manage that so that people don't get confused,
or complain about F1 lookup speed? We're looking into it, but it's not
an easy problem to solve. You don't want the cure to be worse than the
disease.

Bind Delphi Help to the F1 key, and the platform help to the Alt-F1.

A developer always know where he/she want to search.

[Ivan]

Post by Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)
If you can find the Win32 SDK - a critical part of our help -- in
another format besides HTML Help 2, then I am /all/ ears. ;-)

What I meant to say is that I do understand your problem with this. But in actual practice I use my
old Delphi 5 help and Delphi Basics and completely ignore the installed help. I do internet
searches before I look at it.

I find that 98 times out of 100 I'm searching for something in the vcl, the rtl or the delphi
language. It's actually quite rare for me to be looking up windows api stuff -- Delphi itself takes
care of almost all my problems :)

But I do absolutely understand that everybody is not like me and they do need windows api help and
.net help. I just wish it didn't get so much in the way of the Delphi help.

[Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)]

Post by Ivan
What I meant to say is that I do understand your problem with this.

Thanks

Post by Ivan
But in actual practice I use my old Delphi 5 help and Delphi Basics
and completely ignore the installed help. I do internet searches
before I look at it.

And I totally understand that.

Post by Ivan
But I do absolutely understand that everybody is not like me

Ahh, a breath of fresh air! ;-)

Post by Ivan
I just wish it didn't get so much in the way of the Delphi help.

/You/ wish. Think about me! ;-)

[Alexandre Machado]

Post by Ivan

Post by Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)
If you can find the Win32 SDK - a critical part of our help -- in
another format besides HTML Help 2, then I am /all/ ears. ;-)

What I meant to say is that I do understand your problem with this. But
in actual practice I use my old Delphi 5 help and Delphi Basics and
completely ignore the installed help. I do internet searches before I
look at it.

Same here! I use Delphi 6 help instead. In short, BDS 2006 help is useless.

Post by Ivan
I find that 98 times out of 100 I'm searching for something in the vcl,
the rtl or the delphi language. It's actually quite rare for me to be
looking up windows api stuff -- Delphi itself takes care of almost all
my problems :)
But I do absolutely understand that everybody is not like me

Believe me. 90% of Delphi users are just like you. But CodeGear doesn't
know it.

I'm really tired of "management blindness", maybe because I see it
everyday in my own job. Maybe it is a sickness... when you are promoted
to manager you become blind... Don't take it personal Nick! ;)

Regards

[Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)]

Post by Alexandre Machado
I'm really tired of "management blindness",

No one here is blind to the situation with our help. No one.

[Bruce McGee]

Post by Alexandre Machado

Post by Ivan
But I do absolutely understand that everybody is not like me

Believe me. 90% of Delphi users are just like you. But CodeGear
doesn't know it.

I don't suppose you can back that up?

[Alexandre Machado]

Post by Bruce McGee
I don't suppose you can back that up?

Well... help in VCL, RTL, Delphi language itself *versus* WinAPI help?
90% is a little conservative. I should have said 99%.

In any Delphi project can you tell me how many lines of code are using
VCL, RTL or plain pascal and how many are using Windows API calls?

How many times in a week do you search some help for Windows API
functions? Maybe you are in the 10% (should be 1%).
I have 13 years of Delphi development, working in companies with 50-60
Delphi developers, and I've seen few using Windows API frequently. So
I'm using my own experience - since Delphi 1 days - to back up that number.

Maybe you have a different experience. I'm all ears too.

Regards

[Roddy Pratt]

Well... help in VCL, RTL, Delphi language itself versus WinAPI help?
90% is a little conservative. I should have said 99%.

Personally, I do need WinAPI help quite often. But I tend to look it up
on MSDN online, because it's likely to be fresher and may have
community content.

- Roddy

[Bruce McGee]

Post by Alexandre Machado
Maybe you have a different experience. I'm all ears too.

I use the WinAPI help fairly often. I also have 13 years (or so)
experience with Delphi, most of it dealing with small shops and
independent developers. I'd estimate that roughly 50% of them use the
Windows API regularly. Whose experience is more "typical"?

I tend to think that people make assumptions about what the "typical"
Delphi developer needs/uses, and that most of these assumptions are
different from person to person, and that they are almost all wrong to
one degree or another. Mine included.

I also have to think that CodeGear has a better overall picture of
their customer base than any of us do, even if they don't always seem
to act on that information (at least, not as fast as we would like).

I think we have had different but equally valid experiences.

[Jan Derk]

Post by Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)

But it would be really nice to have an option to use real help for
win32 so at least the help that is there would not be buried in
useless .net stuff.

If you can find the Win32 SDK - a critical part of our help -- in
another format besides HTML Help 2, then I am all ears. ;-)

It is also available on the web:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa139672.aspx

I would settle for IDE option that searches google for:

<keyword> site:msdn.microsoft.com

It is what I do now, because it just works.

Eclipse & PHP also do something similar. Hitting Shift+F2 in the IDE searches
the online PHP manual for the keyword. The user can add or remove local or
website locations. Here is a screenshot of the manual settings page:

http://files.zend.com/help/Zend-Studio-Eclipse-Help/php_manual.htm

Jan Derk

[Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)]

Jan Derk wrote:

We are looking at all different kinds of solutions, including some of
the ones you are mentioning here.

[Achim Kalwa]

Hello Nick,

Post by Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)

But it would be really nice to have an option to use real help for
win32 so at least the help that is there would not be buried in
useless .net stuff.

If you can find the Win32 SDK - a critical part of our help -- in
another format besides HTML Help 2, then I am /all/ ears. ;-)

The problem (for me) is not the file format, but the extremly slow
Microsoft Help Reader, which seems to be DotNET based.

Do you know the "Delphi Praxis Help Booster"?
It uses the Delphi 2007 Welcome Page to display the help results. And it
is incredible fast! Watch the video:
http://www.delphipraxis.net/videos/helpbooster/

2nd alternative:
H2Viewer from Helpware:
http://www.helpware.net/mshelp2/h2viewer.htm
I would like to have H2viewer included in next Delphi release!


Achim

[Alexandre Machado]

Post by Achim Kalwa
http://www.helpware.net/mshelp2/h2viewer.htm
I would like to have H2viewer included in next Delphi release!

I liked that! ;)

Regards

[Pete Fraser]

The H2Viewer is just a wrapper around the MS help viewer :(
So the speed would be the same for the same help file.
Sorry, Pete

Post by Achim Kalwa
Hello Nick,
http://www.helpware.net/mshelp2/h2viewer.htm
I would like to have H2viewer included in next Delphi release!

[Alexandre Machado]

Post by Ivan

Post by Alexandre Machado
Why don't abandon that?

They can't as long as they want .net help -- that is as long as they
support .net :) MS only allows the .net help to be distributed in that
format. But it would be really nice to have an option to use real help
for win32 so at least the help that is there would not be buried in
useless .net stuff.

Leave .NET MS Help there. And create another help for every other thing.
Long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, Delphi 1 (yes! Delphi 16
bits!) had 2 diferent menu items, one for Delphi Help, and other for
Windows API Help. At least half help would be fast and functional.

Delphi 2007 is a Win32 only product... Isn't it? So is Tiburon. Why
should it have a crappy MS .NET help system? It is slow, it is buggy, it
is counterproductive. It should *HELP* developers doesn't it? Not be a
nightmare.

BTW, my BDS 2006 help system stopped working again (3rd time in a year
or so), just because I've reinstalled .NET 2.0 redistributable. So... I
will spend (or loose?) some hours to try to make it work again... Just
because MS - and CodeGear - think that this is good for me, and DO NOT
listen to customers.

Regards

[Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu]

Post by Dave Nottage [TeamB]
Can you make any specific comments about install times? <g>

I think we are seeing full installs -- help and third party -- in about
45 minutes, with the large help install taking much of that.

The 45 minute install sets up users so when they launch Delphi 2007 and it
takes 45 seconds, they think - "Darn thats fast"!

[Andreas Hausladen]

Post by Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu
45 seconds

For me it takes 25 seconds on a cold start and 10 seconds on a warm
start. (And I have lots of packages/components installed, but also DSU)

[Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu]

Post by Andreas Hausladen

Post by Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu
45 seconds

For me it takes 25 seconds on a cold start and 10 seconds on a warm
start. (And I have lots of packages/components installed, but also DSU)

Then maybe you can install in 25 minutes. :) Both numbers are too long.....

[David Erbas-White]

Post by Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)

Post by Farshad
Will there be some serious improvements to the Installer in D2009?

Yes, there will be.

Any humorous ones???

David Erbas-White

[Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)]

Post by David Erbas-White
Any humorous ones???

I hope not. ;-)

[Farshad]

Post by David Erbas-White

Post by Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)

Post by Farshad
Will there be some serious improvements to the Installer in D2009?

Yes, there will be.

Any humorous ones???

An example for a humorous improvement might be; Installer will terminate
itself with a BSOD after 3 hours of installation and you'll start laughing
hysterically! :)

[David Erbas-White]

Post by Farshad

Post by David Erbas-White

Post by Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)

Post by Farshad
Will there be some serious improvements to the Installer in D2009?

Yes, there will be.

Any humorous ones???

An example for a humorous improvement might be; Installer will terminate
itself with a BSOD after 3 hours of installation and you'll start laughing
hysterically! :)

I think you're mistaken. I'll be crying.

The folks around me, however, will probably be laughing hysterically...

David Erbas-White

[Alexandre Machado]

Post by Farshad
Today I had to do a minor modification in my D2007 installation. I ran the
setup, chose Modify and asked it to removed IntraWeb from installed
components. No kidding, it took more than two hours and still waiting for it
to finish. I just asked it to remove a single component and I had to
interrupt working for more than two hours! A similar operation could be done
in a matter of minutes or even seconds in Delphi 7.
Will there be some serious improvements to the Installer in D2009? The
current picture is far from being acceptable.

Doesn't Thoma Cressey Bravo own a Install something company? If so, CG
should use that InstallSomething product. Anything is better than
super-slow InstallAware.
I could never understand why CG did not use the excellent, free and
*Made with Delphi* Inno Setup.

Regards

[Chris Burrows]

Post by Alexandre Machado
Doesn't Thoma Cressey Bravo own a Install something company? If so, CG
should use that InstallSomething product.

I can't see any:

http://www.tcb.com/software.php

Post by Alexandre Machado
I could never understand why CG did not use the excellent, free and
*Made with Delphi* Inno Setup.

My guess is that (for better or worse) CG's requirements included MSI, Internet-aware updates etc. etc.

BTW InstallAware is also claimed to be *Made with Delphi*

http://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/handbook_note_93.html

Note the comment :-(

--
Chris Burrows
CFB Software
http://www.cfbsoftware.com/cp

[Nick Hodges (Embarcadero)]

Post by Chris Burrows
BTW InstallAware is also claimed to be *Made with Delphi*

It is.

[Alexandre Machado]

Post by Chris Burrows

Post by Alexandre Machado
Doesn't Thoma Cressey Bravo own a Install something company? If so, CG
should use that InstallSomething product.

http://www.tcb.com/software.php

Post by Alexandre Machado
I could never understand why CG did not use the excellent, free and
*Made with Delphi* Inno Setup.

My guess is that (for better or worse) CG's requirements included MSI, Internet-aware updates etc. etc.
BTW InstallAware is also claimed to be *Made with Delphi*
http://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/handbook_note_93.html
Note the comment :-(

LOL!!! They should omit that SlowAware is made with Delphi! ;)

Regards

[Serge Dosyukov (Dragon Soft)]

I would suggest to check the new version.
It takes much less time to do it.
If you ever worked with WI based products it is very much common that way
how people write the script (and not an engine) which would cause slowness
during an installation process. And it is solely depend on the style of the
script writer and what features are involved. and Delphi setup has to many
to my taste because of the bundling...

With all suggestion to use other systems... why not to use good old batch
file? Copy files over, apply registry changes and everything is great.
Just to compare... how long does it take you to install MS VS? Delphi is not
much smaller and installs some of the MS required packages internally I
would think.

Side note. To be certified for Windows, I think there was a point for using
WI technology (notice that it is not an MSI).
In addition, If you are to go with WMI then you better use WI to automate
process, have better control on remote machines, etc.

Post by Farshad
Today I had to do a minor modification in my D2007 installation. I ran the
setup, chose Modify and asked it to removed IntraWeb from installed
components. No kidding, it took more than two hours and still waiting for
it to finish. I just asked it to remove a single component and I had to
interrupt working for more than two hours! A similar operation could be
done in a matter of minutes or even seconds in Delphi 7.

[Alexandre Machado]

Post by Serge Dosyukov (Dragon Soft)
Side note. To be certified for Windows, I think there was a point for using
WI technology (notice that it is not an MSI).

Yes, I guess that you are right about it.

But, is it important? Except for MS own IDE, all other IDEs inluding
Eclipse, NetBeans, whatever are Windows certified? I think that Windows
certified products sound like some old 90's software.

Best regards.

[Serge Dosyukov (Dragon Soft)]

Post by Alexandre Machado

Post by Serge Dosyukov (Dragon Soft)
Side note. To be certified for Windows, I think there was a point for
using WI technology (notice that it is not an MSI).

Yes, I guess that you are right about it.
But, is it important? Except for MS own IDE, all other IDEs inluding
Eclipse, NetBeans, whatever are Windows certified? I think that Windows
certified products sound like some old 90's software.

I think it is, if:

* If you are a company which produces IDE to develop for Windows platform.
* If you want to be used by the companies which utilize MS infrastructure
model

Certification or compliance is important thing since it allows you to see
how well you fit in the environment you are developing for.
Many of the problems associated with Vista for example is because people
have very vague understanding for requirement associated with Vista and that
something developed for XP may not work on Vista (until in compatibility
mode) just because it violates some of those requirements.

[Alexandre Machado]

Post by Serge Dosyukov (Dragon Soft)
Certification or compliance is important thing since it allows you to see
how well you fit in the environment you are developing for.
Many of the problems associated with Vista for example is because people
have very vague understanding for requirement associated with Vista and that
something developed for XP may not work on Vista (until in compatibility
mode) just because it violates some of those requirements.

My point is: Is better a good non certified product than a slow and
buggy certified product. IMO, Developers don't buy an IDE based on
certifications. I've never found a case that somebody choose Delphi
instead of Eclipse because Delphi is Windows certified...
Anyway, each day I see that CodeGear and I think a lot different.
Unfortunatelly, someday this can become irreconcilable.

Regards